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 The Brave & the Bold team-up dilemma (Page 1)
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Osgood Peabody Member |
posted January 07, 2003 01:34 PM
  
Since Bob wanted feedback, I thought it might be worthwhile to split this out on a separate thread. The issue is how to archive the Brave and the Bold team-ups, starting with issue 50. Here are some general choices to be made: 1. Do you separate the Batman and non-Batman team-ups? 2. Do you include all of the team-ups in one archive series? 3. Do you include the team-ups in an individual character's series where it fits chronologically? 4. Do you make a conscious decision to never have overlap, or duplication of these stories from one series to another? When I've more time, I'll offer up my own solution, but I'd figure I'd get the ball rolling. IP: Logged |
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NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted January 07, 2003 02:37 PM
My opinions: 1) No, don't separate Batman from everything else. A picture of Batman on the cover should be sufficient, without adding Batman to the name of second B&B title. 2) Yes. Include the war characters, include the pre-Teen Titans story, include the BC/Starman stories. Why? Because not everyone buys everything. This will give folks a sample of another Archive. IT fullfills the same function the stories had when they were originally published: to introduce readers to characters they aren't already following. 3) Sometimes, depending on many different considerations. If the story is integral to another character's history (the Deadman scenario). If the pages are needed to round out a volume (the Black Canary scenario). If the pages are historically significant to a series (the Robin/Kid Flash/Aqualad scenario). But in most cases, it isn't necessary to include you average Flash/Batman team-up in either's regular series. It isn't necessary to include the Superman/Batman teamups from World's Finest in "Dynamic Duo Archives", is it? Flash appearances in Green Lantern don't get archived in "Flash Archives". 4)Overlap already occurs. The Wonder Woman story from All-Star. A couple of Legion stories appeared in "Supergirl Archives". Each line of Archives needs to be designed in a way that makes internal sense. If the "Brave and Bold Team-up Archives" is to have internal consistency, then IMO it needs to collect all the team-ups. Leaving some out because they might appear elsewhere feels like cheating. 5) New question: What to do with the Superman team-ups in World's Finest? I'm inclined to leave the "World's Finest Archives" strictly Superman/Batman stuff. The Superman/Guest stories should be included with the DC Comics Presents material. 6) New question: What to do with tabloids, Superman vs. Mohammed Ali, Superman vs Spide-Man, Batman vs. Hulk etc.? True, we shouldn't have to cross that archive bridge for some time, but now is the time to think about it. It would be nice to include these in the Archive program, but if licensing forbids, so be it. 7) New question: Should all team-ups outside of regular series be part of one big Archive line? Besides Brave and Bold, World's Finest, DC Comics Presents, there was the hideously-named Super-Team Family and several specials in places like DC Special, Super DC Giant, [/i]DC Special Series[/i], the tabloids, etc. that featured team-ups. Again, most of these aren't about to be Archived for another decade or so, but now is the time to set policy. IP: Logged |
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Owen Cardiff Darcy Member |
posted January 07, 2003 03:23 PM
Once again, here's how I would do it: BRAVE AND THE BOLD ARCHIVES VOL. 1 (208 pages) Brave and the Bold #50 Brave and the Bold #51 Brave and the Bold #52 Brave and the Bold #53 Brave and the Bold #55 Brave and the Bold #56 Brave and the Bold #59 Brave and the Bold #63
Brave and the Bold #64 Brave and the Bold #65 Brave and the Bold #66 Brave and the Bold #67 Brave and the Bold #68 Brave and the Bold #69 Brave and the Bold #70 Brave and the Bold #71
Brave and the Bold #72 Brave and the Bold #73 Brave and the Bold #74 Brave and the Bold #75 Brave and the Bold #76 Brave and the Bold #77 Brave and the Bold #78 Brave and the Bold #79 Brave and the Bold #80
Brave and the Bold #81 Brave and the Bold #82 Brave and the Bold #83 Brave and the Bold #84 Brave and the Bold #85 Brave and the Bold #86 Brave and the Bold #87 Brave and the Bold #88 Brave and the Bold #89
Brave and the Bold #90 Brave and the Bold #91 Brave and the Bold #92 Brave and the Bold #93 Brave and the Bold #94 Brave and the Bold #95 Brave and the Bold #96 Brave and the Bold #97 Brave and the Bold #98
Brave and the Bold #99 Brave and the Bold #100 Brave and the Bold #101 Brave and the Bold #102 Brave and the Bold #103 Brave and the Bold #104 Brave and the Bold #105 Brave and the Bold #106 Brave and the Bold #107
Brave and the Bold #108 Brave and the Bold #109 Brave and the Bold #110 Brave and the Bold #111 Brave and the Bold #112 Brave and the Bold #113 Brave and the Bold #114 Brave and the Bold #115 Brave and the Bold #116 Brave and the Bold #117
Brave and the Bold #118 Brave and the Bold #119 Brave and the Bold #120 Brave and the Bold #121 Brave and the Bold #122 Brave and the Bold #123 Brave and the Bold #124 Brave and the Bold #125 Brave and the Bold #126 Brave and the Bold #127 Brave and the Bold #128
Brave and the Bold #129 Brave and the Bold #130 Brave and the Bold #131 Brave and the Bold #132 Brave and the Bold #133 Brave and the Bold #134 Brave and the Bold #135 Brave and the Bold #136 Brave and the Bold #137 Brave and the Bold #138 Brave and the Bold #139 Brave and the Bold #140
Brave and the Bold #141 Brave and the Bold #142 Brave and the Bold #143 Brave and the Bold #144 Brave and the Bold #145 Brave and the Bold #146 Brave and the Bold #147 Brave and the Bold #148 Brave and the Bold #149 Brave and the Bold #150 Brave and the Bold #151 Brave and the Bold #152 Brave and the Bold #153
Brave and the Bold #154 Brave and the Bold #155 Brave and the Bold #156 Brave and the Bold #157 Brave and the Bold #158 Brave and the Bold #159 Brave and the Bold #160 Brave and the Bold #161 Brave and the Bold #162 Brave and the Bold #163 Brave and the Bold #164 Brave and the Bold #165 Brave and the Bold #166
Brave and the Bold #167 Brave and the Bold #168 Brave and the Bold #169 Brave and the Bold #170 Brave and the Bold #171 Brave and the Bold #172 Brave and the Bold #173 Brave and the Bold #174 Brave and the Bold #175 Brave and the Bold #176 Brave and the Bold #177 Brave and the Bold #178
Brave and the Bold #179 Brave and the Bold #180 Brave and the Bold #181 Brave and the Bold #182 Brave and the Bold #183 Brave and the Bold #184 Brave and the Bold #185 Brave and the Bold #186 Brave and the Bold #187 Brave and the Bold #188 Brave and the Bold #189 Brave and the Bold #190
Brave and the Bold #191 Brave and the Bold #192 Brave and the Bold #193 Brave and the Bold #194 Brave and the Bold #195 Brave and the Bold #196 Brave and the Bold #197 Brave and the Bold #198 Brave and the Bold #199 Brave and the Bold #200 IP: Logged |
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Owen Cardiff Darcy Member |
posted January 07, 2003 03:29 PM
The only volume that would disappoint Batman fans is vol. 1, which has only one Batman team-up; in vol. 2 and 3, all but two stories in each volume are Batman team-ups; and it's all Batman team-ups beginning with vol. 4. To keep the Batman fans happy, DC could release another Batman volume the same year as B & B Vol. 1. IP: Logged |
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NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted January 07, 2003 03:34 PM
Another to think about: do you include the covers to the skipped issues? I think everyone agrees that the two Metamorpho try-outs and the one Teen Titans (proper) try-out are to be excluded. Should those covers be included? If so, how do you describe them. Are they implicit promises for "Teen Titans Archives" and "Metamorpho Archives", if neither has been published when the B&B volume is published? IP: Logged |
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datalore Member |
posted January 07, 2003 03:39 PM
The issue is how to archive the Brave and the Bold team-ups, starting with issue 50. Here are some general choices to be made: 1. Do you separate the Batman and non-Batman team-ups? 2. Do you include all of the team-ups in one archive series? 3. Do you include the team-ups in an individual character's series where it fits chronologically? You have to go by the issues, and look on a case by case basis...(so, by this thinking, we'd get the Starman & Black Canary tales from 61 & 62 again; I shudder a little at that, but accept it by my own rules...and those are GREAT stories...I WOULD suggest leaving out individual B&B tales for the individuals Archives...like 57 & 58 for a Metamorpho book, and 60 for Teen Titans...but all the rest are legimate crossings of two different series...maybe even "reach out" to the two Showcase team-up issues with Dr. Fate and Hourman? Hmmm...HOW close are we to Dr. Fate Archives?) Those two Neal Adams drawn Deadman's are the best example of what needs to be in both (yet, notice how no one looks for 104, 133 or the DC Special Series Deadman stories in Deadman collections...again, based on how much they relate...) What we will do when you get to the 160s (the Nemesis back-ups that crossed over into full-length Batman team-ups once a year...well...I'D like them!) 4. Do you make a conscious decision to never have overlap, or duplication of these stories from one series to another? It would be nice to NOT do it...but, then again; not unlike the purpose of B&B in the 1960s...you'd team up characters hoping fans of one would try the other. So, by doing ALL the stories of B&B in order, you might get someone to try the Sgt. Rock Archive thanks to the B&B war tale, or Teen Titans Archive by the B&B tale, etc. (True, they might not be happy getting an immediate duplication in the Teen Titans case, but then again...you'd upset Teen Titans fans by leaving it out of the Silver Age Teen Titans Archive...and I think you'd do team-up fans a disservice leaving the tale out of the B&B line...)
But, we are working on the team-ups now...
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datalore Member |
posted January 07, 2003 03:43 PM
As always, Owen is incredibly detailed.
(That way, B&B fans looking for Bat-thrills at least get Robin for an extra tale, as well as having more pages...) Other than that, I could survive with what he leaves out (figuring later Black Canary team-ups to be strong enough to convince fans to pick up her Archive, and thus her Starman team-ups...) IP: Logged |
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casselmm47 Member |
posted January 07, 2003 03:46 PM
quote: This is where whoever writes the 'Foreward' should make the effort to describe the rationale for omitted/skipped issues, maybe with smaller reproductions of the covers to accompany the text. This would be crucial to the first B&B teamup archive, since all of the omitted issues are from the time frame of issues in that Archive. This Foreward would explain the evolution of the title from the early random teamups to the eventual 'Batman-and...' title that it became. Hopefully, both a SA Teen Titans and Metamorpho Archive would appear before the B&B Teamup Archive, so as to allay the fears of those thinking they're 'missing out' on the skipped issues. Cass IP: Logged |
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datalore Member |
posted January 07, 2003 03:47 PM
Oh, and there is a DC Special Series (#8 I think) that came out between B&B 139 & 140 with Batman, Deadman and Sgt. Rock fighting Lucifer (somewhere around 40 pages, the closest B&B ever got to an annual...) It does REALLY mess up some of the later stuff... IP: Logged |
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datalore Member |
posted January 07, 2003 03:50 PM
quote: Very well stated. AT least, we could have Metamorpho and SA Teen Titans Archives solicited in the same year (again, to relieve us panicky fans!) IP: Logged |
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casselmm47 Member |
posted January 07, 2003 03:52 PM
quote: ... this is a much more detailed and better presented version of what I was trying to get at in my post over on Page 18 of the Ask Bob Greenberger' thread.... Bring on that Nemesis Archive! Cass IP: Logged |
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casselmm47 Member |
posted January 07, 2003 03:57 PM
datalore: >ugh< Didja have to bring up that DC Special Series ish? All those 'three-way teamups' (Bats, GA and Metal Men; Bats, Plas and Metamorpho; '4 Famous Co-Stars', etc,) really throw a monkeywrench into the works... Cass IP: Logged |
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datalore Member |
posted January 07, 2003 03:59 PM
quote: Bless you! (Let's see...basically 27 8 pagers and 2 25 pages...266 pages. A little large...I'll do a full breakout elsewhere...) IP: Logged |
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Pig Iron Member |
posted January 07, 2003 04:03 PM
I think a Brave & The Bold, and Batman in Brave & The Bold seperate volumes would work better. Much like World's Finest..... It gives editorial #1's like they want and also seperates issues for particular fan types..... IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted January 07, 2003 04:05 PM
quote: IP: Logged |
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outpost2 Member |
posted January 07, 2003 04:46 PM
I add my vote for a team-up archive. However, they should definitely give some thought as to what should and should not be included, and not just blindly include everything. Certain team-ups make sense to publish in an individual character's archive only. B&B #52 in a Sgt. Rock Archive, B&B #54 in a Teen Titans Archive, B&B #59,64,67-71,74-up in a Batman In B&B Archive, and perhaps B&B #61-62 only in a Black Canary Archive. Actually, I'm uncertain how I feel about duplicating the Black Canary team-up. Since it's two issues, I'd probably vote not to. Certain team-ups could fit both into an individual character's archive and into a team-up archive. It's a judgment call. The only one that stands out in my mind is the Flash/Doom Patrol team-up from B&B #65. That reads like a Doom Patrol tale, so I believe it should be reprinted in both the Team-Up Archive and Doom Patrol Archive (but not in a Flash Archive). My question for Bob Greenberger: If a Team-Up Archive featuring B&B #65 comes first, how much more does it cost to reprint the pages again in the Doom Patrol Archive? All the printer's plates and color separations would have been paid for, so it's only a question of printing and paper costs. In other words, in this scenario, would a 210 page Doom Patrol Archive without the B&B tale cost "about the same" as a 232 page Doom Patrol Archive with the B&B tale? If the answer is "yes", then I don't see why anyone would complain about getting a "free" extra story, even if it was previously seen elsewhere. Doom Patrol Archives vol. 3 actually gets a little more complicated, because it would also include a crossover with the Challengers of the Unknown magazine. In my opinion, it makes sense for DP Archives vol. 3 to reprint Doom Patrol #99-101, Challengers Of The Unknown #48, Doom Patrol #102-103, Brave And Bold #65, and Doom Patrol #104-105 (in that order). OK, here's my two cents...
SHOWCASE (If necessary, DC Super-Stars #10, Showcase #100, and Super-Team Family stories could be used for filler.) IP: Logged |
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OldGuy Member |
posted January 07, 2003 04:56 PM
1. Do you separate the Batman and non-Batman team-ups? No go through them chronologically
3. Do you include the team-ups in an individual character's series where it fits chronologically?
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Karl40 Member |
posted January 07, 2003 07:37 PM
I agree 100% with what James posted. And I'd be happy if the 2nd Batman volume ended with B&B no. 78 to dovetail into the forthcoming Adams Batman collection. I'm personally not interested in much 1970 forward, and 1 B&B team-up volume, 2 B&B Batmans and the Adams collection pretty much completes the B&B team-ups for me. IP: Logged |
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vze2 Member |
posted January 07, 2003 07:45 PM
The short answer: Stall by publishing The Brave and the Bold Archives Vol. 1 to 3 (Issues 1-24). In an absolutely best case scenario, that buys you 3 years. More likely, 6-8 years. The long answer: I need to think some more about this first. IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted January 07, 2003 07:49 PM
quote: You can space this out even further by then doing a short volume each of Suicide Squad and Cave Carson. Of course, neither of these should be done before Sea Devils and Rip Hunter (and I suppose Metal Men too) gets a turn.... IP: Logged |
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rogerburks Member |
posted January 07, 2003 07:50 PM
I would much prefer to see The Brave and The Bold Archives start at issue #1. If there ever is a B&B archive, I would be OK with not reprinting certain team-ups in other archives. IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted January 07, 2003 08:55 PM
Just a moment out to be a really annoying nitpicker: despite the thread's title, what we're discussing isn't a dilemma. It's a question, a problem, an issue, maybe even a conundrum, but it's not a dilemma. A dilemma offers two bad choices and no good ones, hence the expression "on the horns of a dilemma". Sorry to be so persnickety, but it's one of those things that always screams at me, like the misuse of "decimate". IP: Logged |
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The Vigilante Member |
posted January 07, 2003 09:20 PM
Since DC doesn't mind reprinting stories that have already been reprinted numerous times already in and out of archives (Justice Society Vs. Injustice Society of the World, first JLA/JSA team-up, first WW in All-Star, etc.) I say either start Brave and Bold with #1 or #50, but print everything from that point ... the tryouts for JLA, Suicide Squad, Hawkman, the Teen Titans, Metamorpho, Flash/Doom Patrol issues, etc. Flash/Doom Patrol really also has to go into the DP archive as well ... in fact, if a DP archive, when it gets to that point, doesn't have the B&B tale and the Challengers story, I won't purchase it. They've printed almost every appearance of the Legion down the line, so I think they should continue that scheme of things with the other archives that aren't necessarily title-specific (Superman in Action, Batman - Dynamic Duo, etc.). Don't separate the Batman and non-Batman stories. They progressed from no regular star to Batman, so you should present them in that manner. Not having a lot of Batman team-ups in an Archive will not make me feel bad, but not bothering with the Green Arrow/Manhunter from Mars or Starman/Black Canary (or other non-Bats stories) will make me pass on the whole book. Present 'em as they were published, I say. I can't see things like the Superman/non-Batman team-ups not being in a World's Finest Archive, though I also can't see anyone really wanting them reprinted in the first place, since with the exception of two or three stories (and a lot of good golden age reprints), they were thoroughly unexceptional comics (which is why that particular format didn't last too long, IMO). DC Comics Presents is an entirely different animal from a rather different era. --Rich IP: Logged |
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NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted January 07, 2003 10:07 PM
quote: And "impact". Arrrrrrrgggghhhhhhh! The noun is "effect" and the verb is "affect", people. Why is that so frickin' hard?
There is another way to slice up the team-ups. I don;t care for it myslef, but it is something to consider. How about a "Flash Team-Up Archives, V1" featuring all the Flash team-ups in The Brave and the Bold, World's FInest, DC Comics Presents and elsewhere? Same with "Green Lantern Team-Up Archives, V1", "Green Arrow Team-Up Archives, V1", and a few others. Most of the rest, that don't have enough pages for their own volume fit into "Batman Team-Up Archives" and "Superman Team-Up Archives". The reasoning for this follows from what Mike Falcon said on the Bob Greenberger thread: quote: In some respects, Mike's comment is valid. But on closer inspection, it doesn't hold water. Guest appearances and cross-overs, while not common, took place regularly. As I mentioned earlier, the "Flash Archives" aren't reprinting his cross-overs in Green Lantern, are they? The two I have read in "Green Lantern Archives" could easily be Brave and Bold stories, as both characters are equal, including "civilian" interactions. The Flash fan who doesn't want to buy "Green Lantern Archives" doesn't seem to feel cheated if the cross-over stories don't appear in "Flash Archives". Why should he feel cheated if the team-up stories are also excluded? Placing them in the team-up Archives is a logical place to avoid the duplication necessary by printing the team-up in both character's regular Archive. Again, the only reasons I can see for including a team-up story in an individual character's Archive is if the story is integral to that character, or the pages are needed to pad an Archive. In the first case, I supose you could make the case that the story is really a Character One story, guest starring Character Two, and perhaps should be printed only once. In the second case, (the Black Canary/Starman case), it seems like the stories should be printed in both "Black Canary Archives" and "Starman Archives", as Mike suggested. Seems like my opinion on this matter is morphing the more I think about it. I expect this subject will have legs for quite a while. IP: Logged |
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DStepp Member |
posted January 07, 2003 11:09 PM
Put my vote down for the non-spllit. Eliminate the "logical ones" that are a direct story line in another book, or are more "showcase" style than team up and go. My picks: 50,51,53,55,56,59, etcetc Don't separate the Bats stuff. Do the old B&B when you run out of better ideas. D. ------------------ The Comics Archives - The Source of Record of Golden Age DC The Comics Archives II - A significant repository of Silver Age information The DC Archives Home Page - A resource for DC's Archive Editions IP: Logged |
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